Xe Sands has a job that sounds too cool to be real: she’s a professional narrator and vocal artist. Her work has been praised for its “sweet pacing and gentle vocal cadence, and one of her narrations (The Sweet Relief of Missing Children by Sarah Braunstein) was named one of the best audiobooks of 2011 by Audiofile Magzine.
When I heard a clip from her narration of CATCH OF THE DAY, I clapped my hands like a little kid. Her wry take on Maggie, the perfect pauses and emphasis on words…her beautiful speaking voice…when I say I couldn’t have done it better myself, I mean I DEFINITELY couldn’t have done it better myself, so when she agreed to answer some questions, I was thrilled. Thank you, Xe!
XS: Oh Kristan – you are so kind! I truly adored CATCH OF THE DAY (it’s among my favorite projects– no fib) and I was honored to narrate it.
KH: To get us rolling, Xe, give us a nutshell version of the process of book narration.
The first thing I do after accepting a project is do a bit of research on the book, the author and even the readership (especially true with books that are part of an existing series). Next, I read the book in its entirely and send off any questions regarding pronunciations and such to either the author or the publisher (depends on protocol; like that pesky “Ayuh”). While I’m waiting to hear back, I might meet with a dialect coach if the project requires a new (for me) accent, and I often will work on initial delivery and pacing with my mentor. And once all questions have been answered, it’s into the booth to start actually narrating the final version. I try to build enough time into my production schedule to listen to the entire book for overall sound quality and characterization/dialog integrity, and make any desired corrections before sending the completed book back to the publisher. Their team will proof-listen word-for-word to the entire book, send back any required corrections, and once I’ve completed those, will do final mastering of the book for publication.
How did you become a professional narrator?
Well, a bit differently than many, I think. I did not come into the profession from an acting background, but rather from falling in love with narration slowly over the course of more than a decade reading to my daughter. Up until recently, we read together every night – a full storytelling experience. And as she grew and her desire for more sophisticated narration grew, so did my love for what I was doing. Eventually, I explored how to take it to the next level, found an excellent set of mentors, undertook training and began to approach publishers in search of that first book J
On your website, you list yourself as a narrator and vocal artist. Is there a difference between the two?
As for the differentiation between narrator and voice artist, yes, there is a difference in the role and artistic approach for each. With voice over, I am usually trying to sell you something – a car, a candidate, a cause – and will use various vocal tricks to get you to “buy” what I’m selling. But with narration, I’m not selling anything – I’m a storyteller, a conduit for the author’s intent. Sure, the author has a perspective on things, but it’s a more holistic experience and vocal tricks will not authentically convey the author’s intent
What makes you love book narration?
Oooh, first time anyone has asked that – great question! I think that, more than anything, I love immersing myself in the characters, their lives, their drama, their heartbreak and success. When I’m narrating, I’m a channel for all of them, so I feel what each of them feels. I get to inhabit all of these worlds and live all these lives, and then step out of the booth and back into mine J
What qualities do you think a professional narrator brings to a story that a professional actor might not?
Oh you’re getting into the tough questions now! Well, I’m going to assume that by professional actor you mean those at the top of the acting food chain, such as George Clooney, and not professional narrators who are also professional actors, as many of them are. (Kristan’s note: Yep! That’s exactly what I meant.) The narrator can only use their voice and must equally inhabit all characters AND the “character” of the narration itself (if third person narration). I think it’s this last bit that can be especially difficult for actors to deliver on – third person narration. A narrator dives into the subtext of the book and fully delivers the author’s intent with emotion (or dispassion, as the work requires), and that can be tricky. Audiobook narration is an artform unto itself and requires a specific skillset.
What makes a great narration, in your professional and personal opinion?
Here’s what does it for me: a great audiobook has a narrator who is acting like a storyteller, like we are sitting in a room together and s/he is speaking directly to me. I want to hear the emotion s/he is feeling (although only if voiced authentically, not melodramatically), and when characters speak, I want to hear it delivered the way people actually say such things. Because goodness knows, the author had an intent behind every word they wrote, each one designed to evoke SOMEthing, just as the author was certainly hearing her characters speak with authenticity. Often, I hear dialog that just doesn’t ring true – not because of the author’s words, but because the narrator isn’t full inhabiting them, isn’t in fact, acting, isn’t voicing the scene as if they were really in it.
As a listener, I also want to hear nuance and a natural conversational delivery vs. a more formal “stage” or theatrical read, but again, my preference. Sometimes, it sounds as if narrators are too present as “readers” and not fully engaged as storytellers with the straight narrative portions. Both can be particularly tricky with third person narration and I have certainly struggled with them myself.
But all that said, every listener has a different perspective on what makes for the best audio experience. And because no one perspective is correct, no one narrator will completely thrill every listener (although we wish we could!).
Do you have any pet peeves in book narration, either in people’s perception of what you do or the act itself?
Oh gracious yes! On the nitty gritty side, I despise mouth noise and external noise – the bleeds in during recording. Nothing is more frustrating that totally nailing a line, only to have a mouth “click!” or car zoom by at the last moment, thus ruining it. That and when my tongue simply will not behave – it will not for love or money say whatever word is tormenting me at that moment (yesterday it was “jujitsu”).
What are some of your favorite audio books and why? Do you ever buy an audio book because of the person narrating it, rather than for the subject matter?
The problem I’ve had of late is that I just don’t have time to listen to many audiobooks because of both my production schedule and the “hairy eyeball” my family gives me when I walk around the house with earbuds in.
But I was able to squeeze a couple in over the past year and subsequently developed two new narrator crushes : ) The first was The Thirteenth Tale, by Diane Setterfield, narrated by Jill Tanner and Bianca Amato. It was an excellent story made truly exceptional by the dual narration. The second was The Snowman, by Jo Nesbo, narrated by Robin Sachs. The latter was definitely outside my usual reading comfort zone, but Sachs’s narration compelled me to listen.
Which brings me to the second question, which I can answer with a resounding, “Yes!” With audiobooks, the narrator is paramount for me. I am extraordinarily picky in what I listen to, so I have to love the narrator to commit to spending 10 or more hours with them. So I will pick an audiobook based on the narrator – although the content also plays a significant role.
What qualities do you think you personally bring to narration?
You know, thanks so much for asking that because I believe that while every narrator won’t suit every listener, we do each bring something unique, something special to the experience. I believe that I bring an ability to truly connect with the characters and voice them authentically and compassionately, regardless of who they are and what they are doing. I also bring a fairly uncommon, intimate delivery. When married with the right text, I think this creates an nuanced and poignant listening experience. That said, I recognize that it’s not for everyone and have to be at peace with that.
What are some of the things that might go wrong during a narration?
Oh gracious – pretty much anything, LOL! First and foremost is external or internal noise (cars, planes, stomach growls). Second, equipment failure or issues with sound quality (especially when you are working from your home studio – you don’t have a tech crew to come in and troubleshoot it for you). There can also be artistic issues such as realizing that what you’re hearing in your head simply won’t come out of your mouth and having to adjust and carry the author’s intent a different way.
How long did it take you to narrate CATCH OF THE DAY?
It took me about 4 days of solid recording, another two for prooflistening and one last one for minor tweaks I wanted to do before sending it back to the publisher, so one week, start to finish.
Do you have any tricks of the trade while you’re reading a story that keep your voice and reading style fresh?
Throat Coat tea! Seriously, I have to live on that during the final days of recording any romance novel because of those “deeply voiced” sexy guys. Also, constant hydration and getting enough sleep (that last one is tricky tricky tricky). For the reading style itself, as soon as I start biffing it every other word, it’s time for a breather – time to step out of the booth, do some stretching, refill the water bottle. And artistically, after a particularly emotional scene, I usually take a quick break so I can come back to the text fresh and appropriately removed a bit from the emotion of the previous scene (you can imagine which one did that to me in CATCH, I’m sure…).
Is there any accent that’s harder for you than others?
A “Mainah’s” – LOL! And Bostonian (hey, I’m a Connecticut girl – everyone knows we don’t **have** an accent). Also German – every time I do a German accent, even with my dialect coach’s firm approval, I feel like I am somehow making fun of all my German-speaking friends.
Do you see the market for audio books growing?
Oh absolutely. I think that many people are realizing that (a) listening IS reading and not cheating, and (b) that they can read so many more books by using audiobooks. Yes, they take longer to read, but you can also read them in the car, while knitting, while doing household chores, exercising, etc. When I worked in an office years ago, I used to listen to audiobooks while I pushed papers around – it was a wonderful way to read while I worked!
I also see interesting things on the horizon in terms of more and more books making it into audio. With Audible’s new production platform, ACX, there is direct access for authors and narrators to collaborate on projects together. Together with established publishers, I think this offers the potential for far more books to enter the audiobook market.
What are the key differences, do you think, between reading a book and listening to a book?
Oooh, now see THERE is an ongoing debate – nay a FEUD even! Some adamantly claim that audiobooks don’t count as reading, while some claim there is no difference. I have to say I disagree with both. Audiobooks DO count, but there are admittedly differences between the two. I see the key difference being all about the experience you have. I feel that an audiobook takes the reading experience and offers another dimension – a soundtrack (voice, not music). For some, this is a beautiful thing as they love the enriched experience (it’s also why it’s crucial to have the perfect match between narrator and text). For some, this is distracting or frustrating because the narrator can’t match what they hear in their own head as they read.
Other difference: tactile, no doubt about it. I love holding a print book, turning the pages, feeling the words flow over me (and for some, they enjoy holding an eReader
) That isn’t present in an audiobook, obviously. Also, the way we experience the two media can be different. For some, reading the text with their eyes allows them to fully process the author’s deft turns of phrase and the pacing of the story. For others, such things “pop” more easily when heard – they don’t gloss over them as easily.
Thank you so much for answering these questions, Xe!
What do you think, gang? Do you love listening to audiobooks? Interested in doing it more often? I’m thrilled to say that Tantor, who produced the audio version of CATCH OF THE DAY, very graciously offered to donate a copy to one commenter!
To hear a snippet, visit http://www.tantor.com/BookDetail.asp?Product=B0824_CatchDay
Hope you love it as much as I do!




























































Jun 18th
2012
5:43 am
Melody May Said:
I have to say that this was very informative. I really like the information provided. I actually like listening to audiobooks after I drop my daughter off at school and go for a walk. I find it very relaxing. I started to listen to audiobooks, because we were driving up Montana I was sick and tire of listening to music, so I figure that listening to a book would be better. It was so much more entertaining.
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Jun 18th
2012
6:17 am
Liz Flaherty Said:
This is a great interview. After years with a long commute, I became an audiobook junkie–it’s fun to know the “behind the scenes” stuff that goes into the process.
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Jun 18th
2012
6:20 am
Mary Looney Said:
I loved this article! I LOVE to read, but I am in my car all day as an outside sales rep and I have been listening to audiobooks for a few years now. This interview with Xe was GREAT!! I have always liked her voice and have listened to several of the books she has narrated.
My favorite question asked was if she choose books based on who was narrating or the subject matter and I also do this. It is almost like having an old friend in the car with me listening to a familiar voice.
Great questions and interview. I truly enjoyed it.
THANKS!!!
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Jun 18th
2012
6:26 am
Jen C Said:
This is probably one of the best interviews of an audiobook narrator I have read. I love love love audiobooks! I have a very mobile lifestyle and love to listen when I travel. I also listen when I clean, cook dinner, etc.
A lot of what Xe said really connected to me — we have about 6 packs of Throat Coat tea that we keep on hand always (it’s great when you have a cold!). I, too, think that listening is “reading”. I don’t need to have the tactile experience of holding the book or smelling it (though admittedly that can be nice).
Finally, I love the pic of the woman listening while sleeping. My whole family does this! A soothing voice helps me relax and sleep. I make a mental note of where I am in the story when I lay down, then when I wake up, it’s easy to go back and hear what I missed while snoozing.
Great post Xe and Kristan!
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Jun 18th
2012
6:54 am
PJ Sharon Said:
Excellent interview, Kristan and Xe. Very informative. I love listening to audio books, but the narrator can make or break the experience. I got completely hooked when I listened to Davina Porter narrating Outlander by Diana Gabaldon. I think I’ve listened to the 29 CD’s six times! I’m just so impressed how you narrators can give voice to so many characters and make the listener forget that they are all coming from the same person. What an incredible talent!Best of luck Xe.
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Jun 18th
2012
7:26 am
Connie Fischer Said:
I really enjoyed this interview as I’ve always wondered how recording an audiobook of many hours is accomplished. I would imagine that it can be exhausting. For myself, I think speaking for even a short period of time would be almost impossible as the dry throat thing would pose a huge problem. For anyone who can do this with all of the determination and accents, etc. involved, my hat is off to you! I do enjoy listening to audiobooks especially when commuting. It makes the time pass in such an enjoyable way and I arrive at my destination relaxed and upbeat!!
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Jun 18th
2012
7:27 am
Lorelei Said:
Oh, Kristan, what an awesome interview! You just come up with the best ideas! Hi Xe, I love your job! I think it’s one of the coolest! I’m also a audiobook junkie because it allows me to enjoy great stories while I can do other chores, but definitely I enjoy them better when the narrator clicks with me, and the sound like how I hear it in my head. Even though your job is so professional and polished, I would love to hear bloopers at the end of some stories. I’m curios, have you ever laughed and couldn’t contain yourself and had to do many repeats? Also, if I wanted to give it a try, is there such a thing as auditioning to see if one can be a narrator? I used to read stories to kids in elementary (Junie B. Jones books) and in one particular scene I was laughing so hard before delivering the sentence that the kids just started LOL, too and it took me several eye wiping times before I could finish the sentence. Do you narrators have annual conferences, too, like writers have RWA? Thank you so much for sharing your experiences, can’t wait to listen to your other narrations
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Jun 18th
2012
7:39 am
Cynthia D'Alba Said:
What an interesting interview. The questions you asked were some of the same ones I have. As much as I’d love to do waht Xe does, my southern accent is pretty strong, so unless you need a Scarlet O’Hara drawl, I couldn’t do it.
I keep an audiobook going in my car at all times. I love them. I buy them and I get them from the library. For the ones I buy, I usually donate them to the library when I’m done so others can enjoy them too.
And I agree that an interviewer can make or break a book. I listened to three books in a series narrated by one person then another person took over for the rest of the series. I hated the new person. Never did adjust.
Thanks Kristan for an awesome and unique interview today.
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Jun 18th
2012
7:56 am
Shana Said:
I do love audio books, and funnily enough last weekend I was sitting at a restaurant and overheard another audio book narrator discussing a project she’s working on. It is fascinating to find out all the goes into such a project.
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Jun 18th
2012
8:28 am
May Pau Said:
Wow… This is the first time that I learn so much about audio books. I usually prefer holding a book and reading it in my hands but I do like audio books when commuting.
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Jun 18th
2012
8:59 am
Anne Said:
Audio books are wonderful. They provide me with hours of enjoyment while on a road trip. They are also invaluable when yo are sick or feeling poorly since they don’t require any work regarding reading and are so therapeutic. Now that I am undergoing Chemo I listen all day long. Many thanks for this informative and interesting post.
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Jun 18th
2012
9:26 am
Margo Maguire Said:
So cool, Kristan!
I love to listen to audiobooks when we’re on a car trip or when I’m doing a mindless task like painting a room or wrapping Christmas presents. It makes the time go by so fast – and when it’s a great reader, it makes all the difference.
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Jun 18th
2012
9:56 am
Brandy Gillihan-Eddy Said:
I just wanted to say this was a really thorough, well done interview. The questions were unique and interesting, and the answers were really, REALLY in-depth. The first interview I’ve enjoyed in a long time (aside from Jen Aniston’s, lololol).
Thank you!
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Jun 18th
2012
10:38 am
Kathleen O Said:
Great interview.. I have to be honest and say I have never listened to an audiobook.. I am still on the fence with this form of “books”.. But I am sure it will eventually become something I will do..
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Jun 18th
2012
10:38 am
Nancy Robards Thompson Said:
What a fascinating post! Thank you, Kristan and Xe for this glimpse inside the making of an audio book. If possible, I’ll read the book and then listen to it later because it always gives me a different perspective. I usually have audio and print books going simultaneously.
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Jun 18th
2012
10:39 am
RobynDeHart Said:
What a great interview! Thanks for joining us today. I used to listen to audiobooks all the time when I had a day job with a commute. I miss them. As my kiddos get older though I’m sure we’ll get back to playing them in the car, but probably less suspense and more fairy tales.
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Jun 18th
2012
10:51 am
Kanya Chhet Said:
Great interview!
I’ve listened to my first audiobook a few weeks ago, while recovering from an eye surgery. Loved it!
Thanks for the chance to win!
Kanya
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Jun 18th
2012
12:03 pm
StacieD Said:
Before I had an ereader and could take hundreds of books with me on vacation, I would take audio books on my ipod. My last trip to Europe I brought two paperbacks and audiobooks. I listened to a book on the train from Venice to Rome. Anytime I have a road trip is a great time to buy a new audio book.
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Jun 18th
2012
1:11 pm
Char Said:
Xe Sands is one of my favorite narrators! I’ve bought all her romance audio books or check them out at the library. She makes the story come alive like no other. I find her voice very soothing after a stressful day.
I hope she does more romance books because she has the perfect voice for it. It was very insightful to read how she performs her magic. Great interview!
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Jun 18th
2012
1:53 pm
Gail Ingis Said:
WOW! This is my first visit here. How wonderful. This is a timely subject. It happens that I am the private narrator of Kristan’s “Somebody to Love.” I have been reading aloud to my hubby Tom, and of course, enjoying the book and characters at the same time. I find myself taking on the character’s speak and inflections. I am having fun. Both Tom and I enjoy audiobooks when we do driving trips. But he now asks me if I would read aloud. He said, “this is great, maybe we should read to each other.” Right now in “Somebody to Love” we are at Maggie’s wedding. It would be great to hear her’s and Malone’s story in Kristan’s “Catch of the Day.” Xe, so pleased with your story and Kristan, wishing you best of everything. Isn’t that one of your books?
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Jun 18th
2012
2:08 pm
Xe Sands Said:
Aw, all this support for audiobooks totally makes my day! And for those who’ve listened to one of my mine and enjoyed it, thanks so much for saying so. I don’t know that listeners fully realize how much such feedback means to us, especially during/after a long day in the studio.
So many great comments – I’ll try to hit on all the questions here, but ask ‘em if you got ‘em! I’ll check back later today as well.
My daughter and I used to listen to audiobooks on a long daily commute (for those with children, we heartily recommend Hank the Cowdog, and Granny Nothing – I can still sing the Granny Nothing song…). I think my favorite listening time is doing dishes (which I *loathe*) and when I have to do massive rounds of filing. I envy those who can listen while falling asleep – I tried that but kept myself awake to hear the story!
So glad to hear someone else had heard of Throat Coat tea! It’s so soothing on the throat – and after a few days of voicing guys with “impossibly deep voices,” I really need it
And oh, Davina Porter! Just saw her perform live at our annual conference – she was AMAZING. I can see why she has such a following, especially with the Outlander series. Shes’ exceptional.
Speaking of conferences…someone asked if we have them. The answer is yes! The annual APAC (Audiobook Publishers Association Conference) was just held, in conjunction with BEA (Book Expo America), as was our annual awards ceremony – The Audies (at which I met Neil Gaiman and must confess I was subsequently as giddy as a schoolgirl). One of the best parts of that conference (for me) was the Listening Lounge, at which about a dozen top narrators performed bits of work they really love. Such a highlight of the week!
Also – Lorelei – If you’d like to give narration a try, I recommend visiting Librivox.org and seeing what projects they have going that you might want to jump into. I volunteered with them for several years before making the jump to professional narration, and the experience was wonderful. You can also look into local organizations that offer audio readings for the blind and visually impaired – that’s also a wonderful way to both do something you enjoy and assist others.
@Cynthia – LOL! Well I tell you, your lovely Southern drawl would have been just the ticket for a book I recently narrated, which featured first-person narration from a Southern-accented character.
For those who haven’t yet listened to audiobook, we’ll just have to find a way to tempt you
If you do give them a try and don’t enjoy your first experience, try again! That’s what I found years back when first listening with my daughter. We would check out quite a few from the library and give each one a chance to capture our attention.
And quick note to Anne and Kanya – here’s wishing you a full recovery, and years of good health afterward. Very glad to hear that you’ve been able to find solace in audio.
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Jun 18th
2012
4:03 pm
Quilt Lady Said:
Great interview! I can say that I have only listened to one audio book and that was Dear John and I did enjoy it. MY mother in law listens to them all the time.
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Jun 18th
2012
4:33 pm
Rosie Said:
Great interview. I love listening to audio books while cleaning the house. I always wondered what the process was … and now I now. The right narrator can make or break the book for me. I’ve borrowed an audiobook from the library and hated the narrator’s voice so much that I returned the audio book and got the print book instead.
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Jun 18th
2012
4:40 pm
Sharlene Wegner Said:
This was a very informative interview & the sample of the audio book is great! Xe has a very soothing voice. I have never listened to an audio book, but after this, I might just try it! And Kristen – of course I love,love, love all of your books!
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Jun 18th
2012
6:57 pm
bn100 Said:
Very fun and informative interview. I haven’t read an audiobook yet.
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Jun 18th
2012
7:35 pm
Xe Sands Said:
Oh yes, a narrator makes or breaks an audiobook for me too! That’s happened to me more times than I can count…but often on books that everyone else seems to thoroughly enjoy. Which has taught me something very valuable: as listeners, we’ve all got different things we are listening for, preferences and expectations. So as a narrator, I’m learning to accept who I am, what I sound like and what makes my sound “mine,” acknowledging that it won’t suit everyone.
So I say, if you try one and don’t like it, pick another! Audiobooks can take a bit of time to ease into, get used to. Start with your favorite genre or author, and find a short one that seems to be well liked by a majority of listeners, and give it a try.
And Sharlene – happy to hear I *might* have seduced you to the audiobook darkside
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Jun 18th
2012
7:44 pm
Kristan Higgins Said:
I think I’m a typical listener with audiobooks; I’m crazy about the ones I love (David Sedaris reading his own work, for example), but I won’t give more than 10 minutes or so to the ones I don’t care for. It really is such an art form! Thank you so much for stopping in to answer even more questions, Xe!
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Jun 18th
2012
9:00 pm
Emily McKay Said:
This was *so* fascinating!
I’m a huge fan of audio books — I live in the boondocks, so I spend a lot of time in the car.
Also, I’ve narrated books on a volunteer basis for the Texas State Library which records books for the blind and dyslexic. So this was just right up my ally all the way around.
Thanks, Kristan, for the great post!
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Jun 18th
2012
9:07 pm
Kate Cee Said:
Great take on the narrator’s world of audiobooks
I also tend to listen to an audiobook IF the narrator is good (tone, pronunciation, etc) – I know I’m picky, but I usually listen to audiobooks while I commute to and from work (takes about two hours per way) and I tend to fall asleep if the narrator is too melodious or too boring (oops sorry!) – but when I listened to Xe’s voice on the sample narration of COTD – wow! It’s like Maggie brought to life! Nice take on it!
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Jun 18th
2012
10:26 pm
Katy Lee Said:
Welcome to another CT girl!
We are big audio book listeners in my family. I homeschool, so a portion of our “learning” is done by letting someone else do the work. HA! (Did I say that outloud?) BUT, if we get fifteen minutes in and the reading is BORING, I will shut it off. No need to torture the kids, you know?
But then, there have been recordings that if someone even tried to shut off, hands would have been bitten.
I LOVE that you found your calling reading to her child. That is how I found my calling to write. By making up bedtime stories.
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Jun 19th
2012
2:15 pm
Xe Sands Said:
@Emily – love that you’ve volunteered for a local org! Such a wonderful way to give back and have fun doing it!
@Kate Cee – So with you! I’m ridiculously picky about what I listen to too. And thanks so much for the kind words! Always a challenge to bring a much loved book to life in audio because readers have very definite ideas about what everyone should sound like
@Katy Lee – Hello! You did say that out loud and I think it’s awesome
And I’m glad I’m not the only one who has a short litmus test for audiobooks. I usually know within those first 15 minutes if I can live with something for 10 hours. But many listeners I know will give it a good solid hour. I’m trying to get better about this…my daughter was certainly more forgiving when we used to listen to audiobooks on our daily commute.
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Jun 20th
2012
7:33 am
Virginia Wright Said:
Great interview! Thanks for sharing your story, Xe. Very interesting…
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Jun 20th
2012
7:39 am
Virginia Wright Said:
Kristin,
I could here your excitement when you talked about listening to the narration of CATCH OF THE DAY, and clapping your hands like a little kid. That’s awesome! You are a writer’s inspiration:!:
-Virginia
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Jun 22nd
2012
7:19 am
Bec Said:
Fantastic article.
I loved reading Catch Of The Day and am very excited to be able to listen to it too.
And I’ve heard great things about Xe
A big thankyou for having global downloading rights. I have just purchased both COTD and STL from Audible and can’t wait to start listening to them.
Many thanks
Bec (from Australia)
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